Political Ideology, and Personal Ideals!

[alexthechamp]

Hey everyone. I started this thread because I thought it would be interesting to hear your opinions. I would simply like you to expand upon your stance in the political spectrum.

If your interested in taking part, please state where you live, present political system (and past if you so choose), and your party/idealogy of preference.

I live in Canada, and I believe that we are established as a constitutional monarchy. For those of you who aren't brits or canucks (ha), this is because of the fact we were colonized by the english/french. So happens britain won the war and the country. It is still democracy, but representative democracy. This means that a certain number of seats can be won depending on the size of the constituency. The most seats wins the election. Sometimes the party is a minority, some a majority. I digress...

Prime Minister Harper (conservative moron, unfortunately head of a majority govn't) is significantly cutting funding for social services, making marijuana laws more strict (once again), and taking a step back from progress in regards of same sex marriage...basically beginning to turn Canada into a Lil' Ol' U.S. of A.

I didn't vote for the Liberal party, they are nearly as bad-fucking fence sitters. I voted NDP (go jack layton); eNDProhibition...ha! I believe Canada needs to start leaning a little to the left (alot) and take a gander as socialism AGAIN!

Satisfying rant.

[m3tal]

Alex, just ditch socialism, why do you want government to take taxes from you and control your life? If your paying taxes now, even though you say you are against marijuana prohibition, you are for it because you are funding the entity that is making it illegal. Socialism isn't about freedom, libertarianism is about freedom.

I live in the US and I am a libertarian, very close to anarchist.
I think the US is quickly becoming a police state, very much like nazi germany, or the soviet union. There are many similarities with these already, such as police infiltrating peaceful protests, secret prisons, torturing, etc. George W. is decimating the constitution and already declaring he is above the law. Also, police are busting people like us for buying or selling 60 dollars worth of marijuana, a minute amount compared to big dealers. The drug war is the bigger problem. Incompetent government officials stare it right in the face but can't realize that if drugs are legalized, prices will go down, and junkies won't have to steal to pay for drugs if they're legal, because the price will go down. And with the drugs like heroin and meth, bad batches hitting the street will drastically be reduced because they won't be manufactured in a shitty lab in a garage, they will be manufactured in a factory environment, where everything is automated, and there is quality control. And heres the icing on the cake! Imagine getting 4 oz of chron for 100 dollars! That would happen if there was no drug war. Also, the two parties we have right now aren't doing anything except growing government. Voting for your democratic candidate may seem like the right thing, but sadly they compromise with republicans, and say, I'll vote for your law if you vote for mine! Its a never ending circle jerk, and something drastic will have to happen to change that.



http://www.okcupid.com/politics

Thats a political quiz and it puts you on a board and tells you where you are on the political spectrum.

[4*20]

4oz of chron for a 100? You mus be trippin. Taxes expands are going to be near +half the cost price. Prepare getting robbed my friend... Everybody should simply grow their own.

[alexthechamp]

It's funny that you would generalize socialism as a system that would merely take away your freedom. I think taxes are key, especially here in Canada; we fund public health care, education, and many other helpful programs. Some people are afraid of change I guess, but socialism would truly be progress. If you sit and take a close look at socialism in theory rather than practice, that is. I mean, if we considered North American democracy the ideal it would make democracy look pretty shady as well. I hate how people automatically give socialism or communism a negative connotation; the ideas are brilliant! Neither doctrines need be autocratic...it could still be a democratic state. I just wish that liberal parties that favour those idealogies were more likely to get into office. I'm tired of the empty capitalist econonomic system that I see day to day. They perpetually exploit and oppress the lower/middle class.

As for you views on Libertarianism/Anarchy I think they are a tad bit jaded. I side with Thomas Hobbes on this one-without any kind of authority, humans are bound by greed and the everlasting quest for power. And with capitalism/freetrade (which is basically as close to letting everyone have control over their property/belongings as it will get) people are constantly infringing upon others rights anyway. As far as I'm concerned just by producing as much waste as we do, and living this lifestyle, we infringe upon the rights of all of those whom live in substancially undeveloped countries. We do this through our output of pollution, our hoarding of resources and by taking advantage of cheap labour in poorer nations. I could go on and on, but please actually learn a little about socialism/communism before spouting propaganda.

Oh, and regarding your comment about socialism not being freedom, I never said that it was. However I do believe it would contain more freedom than our current system, and it would also provide true equality-something neither libertarian, capitalist/democratic, or anarchic system could ever boast.

Peace

[m3tal]

Alex, what if I don't want to pay for public health care? What if I want my own private provider? Are you going to come and jail me because I don't want it. Whether or not you would want to jail me, someone would, and that is the problem with socialism. In the free market people have incentives, because they won't receive money if they don't make their products or services satisfactory. With socialism, these government funded doctors will have no incentive to do good work on you unless they're good doctors... and believe me, there are bad ones. If the bad ones get hooked into govt funded health care, all they have to do is see patients, and not really care about their well being. This kind of system attracts lazy people.

Socialists for some reason think that everyone has rights to everything. Alas, this is not true. You should have to work for money, and you shouldn't have to give it to the government. One of the rights you don't have is taking away my money, and forking it out to people I don't know. You can make your own charity that takes money voluntarily, but don't expect it to be forced out of me. If a guy came to your door and asked for 300 dollars to feed his grandmother at the point of a gun, you wouldn't be willing to give it to him. In fact, if you have a gun when that happens, you might shoot him. Its the same thing, just at a different level.

You also say how capitalism explioits the lower/middle class... HOW? That is ridiculous.

Now alex, you even say how people are bound by greed and the quest for power. In your socialist system, you think that only good people would be in office? No, thats not true. Bad people would take power, and it would be another soviet union or china. If there are no positions of power, how would there be tyranny?

[alexthechamp]

Please, your arguement is so predictable. This is the exact kind of warped slander only North American would spout, and tbh I used to think the same way. Like I mentioned in the post you made your rebuttle to, your are generalizing-socialism/communism does not need to be a repeat of the soviet era/present day china. As a theory (which you can't seem to grasp) it is about equality, and more freedom than you and I currently share in NA. I can tell you were born into a fairly wealthy family by the way you talk about health care, etc. I realize you do not want to pay for other people but in the eyes of many empathetic people basic human right sinclude medical attention, food, water, shetler and a level playing feel so to speak. I'm sure you would feel quite different about socialism if you were infact one of those less fortunate who needed treatment for an illness but had no money to pay. Or if you needed extra cash because you were a single parent working 12 hour days getting paid $7.00/hr. In Canada, our free (I'm not sure for how long...) health care does not attract lazy people...if you had any tangible proof or logic behind this statement please share with us. I have dealt with these doctors (who are reasonably well paid by the government) and they do their job well.

These taxes do not go to the government, again another misconception about socialism and communism-but it goes to the people. In our industrialized economy, capitalism exploits middle/lower class in out own nation because these massive corporate conglomerates have much more power than they should be allowed, and carry out act of crime against humanity. A few just off the top of my head would be oil spills, chemical and other contamination of drinking water, and the list goes on. These corporations not only degrade our quality of life, but treat employees as disposable pieces of trash. Need I mention sweat shops? Oh, and I don't suppose your against people unionizing as well

Of course I don't believe only good people would be in office, but positions of power would remain with the people. There would be no money hoarding...I'm sure many of us would agree that money equals power. It takes an affluent family to campaign for presidency!

Another positive aspect of socialism is the fact that that man would not need to hold you at gunpoint for money, because it would be provided through taxes! Real socialism is not synomymous with a police state; and if you were a reasonable person the small amount of money you would need to pay to provide benefits to all the people in your nation would not need to be forced out of you...

P.S. perhaps I should mention that I believe that the people with the most money should be the most heavily taxed-redistribution of wealth! Who the fuck needs 120 million dollars? I think your view provide me with adequate evidence to argue that humans are money-hungry. After-all, thats what capitalism is based upon. I don't believe in the 'kill or be killed' attitude that many conservatives have. I also wonder if you'd support disenfranchisement of people that own no property if they were to vote in a more socialist government?

[m3tal]

True equality is no government. With positions of power, the neverending cycle is to reward your friends, and punish your enemies.

Corporations are only protected because of GOVERNMENT because corporations are MADE by governments. Without government, corporations aren't protected. Corporations arent good, believe me. Companies should be held accountable. And as for unions, they don't deserve govt protection either.

Oh and your great at contradicting yourself... Everyone should be equal, sounds good. But wait, if one person is in a position of power, and one person isn't, then thats not very equal now is it? I don't understand what your talking about when you say money hoarding, and positions of power are already with the people!

Your ridiculous with your taxes. You say its a 'small amount' that the government takes. All in all, about 50 percent of your income goes to the government through income tax, and other taxes imposed by these thugs. That is not a small amount. A reasonable amount would be nothing, because I work for MY money. This 50 percent figure is for america, but I'm sure canada is similar. Despite the fact that we are taxed to 50 percent, WE are the most charitable nation in the world. Now tell me, how much more would people give to charity if we kept all our money?

The fact is, its not your damn buisness who has 120 million dollars. Who the fuck are you to take that? How arrogant are you to just snatch someones money away. Its true humans are money hungry, but really, why not? Money is what gives us food, water, tv, computer, internet, WEED (if you buy at least), and all of this. Whats not to be money hungry about. If humans weren't money hungry do you think people who hated their jobs would go to work? NO.

[alexthechamp]

Wow, I see you like to ignore good points of mine and enjoy being quite repetitive.

Corporations are not made by governments...imho, it's vice versa. You ignore the fact that anarchy and chaos all sound great to a stereotypical drug user-freedom to do whatever you please. Think about it for a moment, laws must be imposed but just because some govn't officials would be high up in the bureaucracy they would have the power to make autocratic decisions. With no govn't people will kill, rob, and rape at will-and I know your arguement is going to be that it happens anyway but the fact of the matter is that we need some form of a justice system to protect those who cannot retaliate.

Your perception of communism and socialism are severely skewed-they are an economic system that rids those corporations of their power over blue collar workers/white collar workers/ and all forms of government in general.

It is quite ironic that you would say that power is with the people, being that you live in America. What about the contention over both Dubya elections. Some would call it a definite steal. AS I SAID BEFORE, NEITHER SOCIALISM NOR COMMUNISM ARE DICTATORSHIPS.

It is also ironic you said your the most charitable nation in the world...hmmm, i wonder if it has anything to do with the fact that America has a very large population and is the wealthiest country in the world? Not to mention a fairly recent event in which America had to be prompted to donate more than CANADA to Sri Lanka.

I fucking care who has 120 million dollars because it is an unreasonable amount of money to own-If you aren't a greedy fuck you'd beable to live your days extremely comfortably (yes my friend, without starving, or freezing and WITH many luxuries) with only 1 million dollars. It is not necessary to own a 38 room house with a family of 3-you don't NEED 5 CARS.

Your arguement is weak! It's unfair that a small percentage of the world owns the majority of it's monetary riches. I highly doubt that your income is taxed as much as 50%...and, if that is actually an honest statistic then you should be pushing for socialism...atleast you'd be providing money for social services rather than ammunition for wars...

Like I said, redistribution of wealth and another note; dismissal of all third world debt! Can I ask if you watch CNN or Fox news? A fan of Bill O'reilly? Like Anne Coulter?

[m3tal]

I am repetitive because the principle of freedom is the basis for all of my arguments.

Corporations ARE made by governments actually. You have to sign up to be considered a corporation by the government. If you are a corporation you are given unfair protection by the government, and I am against this.

Let me say that no corporations currently have power over their workers, unless the workers signed a legal contract that they, and the corporation are bound to. That isn't unfair, the worker signed off for it.

I did not say there would be anarchy.. A very small government or anarchy. Now tell me... Most people I would say are good. Now why the hell would all these good people all of a sudden turn bad if there was less of a government or No government? Only the people who are already raping and murdering would do it, and with a small government, there would be police enforcing laws (only laws would be made that protect property rights and punish nonconsensual acts of force made against someone), such as robbing a bank, rape, etc. If there was anarchy, there would be private protection services like there are now, except in anarchy (which I will begin to call the free market), they would compete for customers, and would expand to replace police.

Sure, communism may sound great in theory, but sadly, every place its been enstated has encountered economic sag, has had dictators (Castro, Stalin, Zedung, Kim jong il,etc). Human nature just isn't meant to work in the collectivist way of communism... Sadly, communisms turn to dictatorships because people don't want to live controlled by communism.

Your arguement is weak! It's unfair that a small percentage of the world owns the majority of it's monetary riches. I highly doubt that your income is taxed as much as 50%...and, if that is actually an honest statistic then you should be pushing for socialism...atleast you'd be providing money for social services rather than ammunition for wars...

Hey guess what? This country got rich because of capitalism, and entrepreneurism! Maybe that is saying something? And I never said our income is directly taxed as much as 50 percent. It is taxed alot, but through other taxes it brings it up to 50 percent.

My overlying concept is: Government is here to protect liberty. Every country needs to get back to their own country, drugs need to be legalized, taxes dropped, useless programs like welfare, social security, etc cut. Owners should have complete control of what goes on on there property, and laws should only govern nonconcentual force against others (force can encapsule different things).

Legitimate people get wealthy by giving people what they want. Its none of your fucking buisness who gets more money than you, so shutup. Bill gates is a billionaire, so what? I'm using his product right now, and he earned the money well. I don't want his money, I'm not looking to take other peoples money. Apparently you are, at the barrel of a gun. Cause thats what it comes down to if you dont give it to the government. You needa stop being a socialist and be a libertarian, cause we both wanna help people , but in diff ways. Sorry for being harsh at times.
Case closed.

[alexthechamp]

I don't see it as harsh, but maybe a bit ignorant. You claim to want to help people yet fail to even fully understand how capitalism.free market negatively affect the rest of the world. I'm not sure what it would take to disillusion you but it seems (no matter how 'liberal' you consider yourself) your pretty closed minded. Like I said you are ignoring some very good points of mine (hmmm....coincidence?)

By the way Anarchy has nothing to do with freemarket. Your arguement contradicts itself-you type as an idealist yet continue to say that we are not meant to live in a collective fashion. If you consider being a stubborn ass closing the 'case' then so be it. It's only a debate if you actually address my point rather than reinstating your previous points over and over. You say the underlying theme on your side of this contention is 'freedom' but words such as this are vague and doublespeak. The Iraq war is currently being justified under that notion of 'freedom'. The fact that you are so short sighted to be oblivious to the fact that our so called 'freedom' to deplete resources, etc. actually infringes upon other peoples quality of life and basic human rights. These people do not earn their money honestly like you seem to think, they make millions by cutting corners (poor clean up, poor waste dispoal, cheap labour, lack of benefits for employees) and essentially fucking the planet over nicely. It's pretty ironic that your brilliant concept of 'freedom' is one that blatantly oppresses the majority of the world.

My idea of liberty is clearly far different from yours. In the constitution it states you have a right to pursue happiness, and as the cliche goes contentment is not implied through currency. Another flaw in your arguement; if humans were generally well intentioned beings then we wouldn't be as greedy as we are. Re-read my previous posts and refer to the questions you've conveniently decided to leave out of your rebuttle. Other than that, I'm not willing to waste energy disputing these matters with you any longer...it's obvious you lack insight into this subject having been a privileged person your entire life and falling for this ridiculous idea of the 'American Dream'. Consider for a moment how useless those social programs would be if you yourself needed them, or someone you loved more than yourself needed them. You're the kind of narrow minded, self-righteous person that gives many NA's a bad name and provides fuel to the fire of ethnocentrism. Your 'freedom' comes with a price...there is a large amount of collateral damage done in the process in the process of overzealous/unaccountable entrepreneurship consuming capitalism.

How old are you?

Peace

[alexthechamp]

This thread has many views but only two posters? It's kind of odd that more overly-opinionated people didn't jump right into the shitstorm of controversy.

[m3tal]

Your hypocritical if your calling me close minded. We're both close minded.

But the fact is, you want to run other peoples lives. I'm against that.

Well intention is not implied through greed or lack thereof. If your not greedy, then give away all your money.

Your the typical socialist who hates people with more money than you. You belive people won't donate to charities, so the money must be forced out of them by the government.

You're all for force and taxes, and you make me sick. Seriously I get pissed off from people like you...

[alexthechamp]

Yes, I just hate people with more money than me...

that means I hate a lot of people man. I don't wholly hate any being, and I don't want to control peoples lives. I want to make the world a better place. What makes you think you have a god given right to all that makes life worth living? Did you know that if everyone lived by our standards we'd need approx. 8 planet earths to support humanity? Okay... let me break it down for you; consider for a moment that the entire population of the earth was merely the equivalent of 100 people. Six of those people would have over 60 of the world's wealth, and 80 would live in substandard housing.

It takes compromise, but you're convinced people deserve whatever they can get, no difference in the methods of which they obtain those ends.

[weedguru_animal]

This thread has many views but only two posters? It's kind of odd that more overly-opinionated people didn't jump right into the shitstorm of controversy.

One of the reasons that this thread lacks popularity is that despite the publicized neutrality(' I would simply like you to expand upon your stance in the political spectrum.') of your reactions to others' views and beliefs, you, Alex, come off as relishing the chance to bash other people down with your own views. You don't seem willling to accept that your way may not be Right just because you feel confident you know all the facts and can make that call. yes the world is full of clones, but there are also millions of individuals with very individual minds. So, in future I would strongly advise you to put more effort into accomodating alternative views that contradict your own. Else you appear, from some perspectives to be as close minded as you accuse others of being.

I don't have much regard for any of the political idealogies mentioned so far in this thread. Humantiy as a whole has gone too far down destructive road to turn back. Often I think that the only chance for the planet and for every non-human creature unafflicted by the typical human traits of greed and megalomania, is for our race to be crushed completely. though I would like to take a small number of humans underground before the massive cull, then restart human civilization with a clean slate, with the main goal being to work in harmony with the planet and the creatures around us. Because failing that, any of the systems of which have been brandished, will continue to push humanity down the path towards self destruction and the death of the very planet and source of life from where we sprung.

Politics is inherently focussed on manipulation of perceptions and the procurement of power and control. Whether that control and power is 'for the good of the masses' is not relevant to me.

[alexthechamp]

Maybe you should read all responses before saying anything yourself animal...i do believe I was told to 'ditch' socialism. pffft.